Curse

LockerLoad · Jun 09, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandom

Sadly, this is not "blatant bait and switch". If you'd like to get technical about it, Guild Wars Prophecies was advertised as a game in which skill > time and that is the truth. Most things in Prophecies do require more skill rather than time. You got what you paid for, and if you only had Propechies, your game expereience would mostly require skill > time. However, to the best of my knowledge, neither Factions, Nightfall, or GW:EN was advertised as such, and each brought elements into the game in which they required you to grind. Therefore, you still got what you paid for, 3 chapters of an MMO in which you had to grind.

First of all Guild Wars is a single game. Factions, Nightfall and EoTN are called Campaigns.

Secondly did you read the OP or look at the Prophecies game sleave Sphonz so conveniently scanned for people who maybe didn't play back then? The whole point is that GW has been perverted by the separation of PVP and PVE skills.

It's from WhackyPedia so YMMV

"bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the party putting forth the fraud lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is."

Sound familiar?

pumpkin pie · Jun 09, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

EoTN is an expansion.

most thread now a days will turn into an ursan thread like 80% of the time!!!!!!

Abedeus · Jun 09, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

The whole point is that GW has been perverted by the separation of PVP and PVE skills.

No? It was destroyed by PvE-only skills and consumables.

Quote:

First of all Guild Wars is a single game. Factions, Nightfall and EoTN are called Campaigns.

Wrong again. Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall are stand-alone campaigns with some references to each other. EotN is an add-on (not expansion, actually... Expands only PvE side, adds few skills to pvp and nothing more).

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

No? It was destroyed by PvE-only skills and consumables.

And the introduction of new imbalances, such as Dervs, Rits, 'Sins and Paragons. And the introduction of imbalanced skills through them. *cough* Nightfall Power Creep.

seandom · Jun 09, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

First of all Guild Wars is a single game. Factions, Nightfall and EoTN are called Campaigns.

I'd just like to quote this for emphasis. Each chapter that was released is a campaign, and Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall are all *stand-alone* games(meaning you don't need one to play the other). And Prophecies was the ONLY ONE that was advertised as skill > time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

It's from WhackyPedia so YMMV

"bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the party putting forth the fraud lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is."

Sound familiar?

Nobody here was duped to the point of illegality into buying Factions, Nightfall, and EotN. Everybody really enjoyed Prophecies, then proceeded to buy the rest of the games at their availibility. Just because the other campaigns weren't what you were expecting, doesn't mean that it's fraud. Prophecies was sold as an alternative to WoW which looked somewhat realistic and had a skill > time motivation so you didn't have to grind or get the best armor to be the best in the game. The thing that sold Factions was 2 new classes, new armors, new skills, and a new campaign. Same with Nightfall with the addition of heroes. GW:EN sold because, hell, you've already bought the first three games, I might as well buy the third, also, all my friends are doing it. No fraud there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Secondly did you read the OP or look at the Prophecies game sleave Sphonz so conveniently scanned for people who maybe didn't play back then? The whole point is that GW has been perverted by the separation of PVP and PVE skills.

I did read the OP, but I responded to what I saw later in the thread, which was more complaints about Ursan. If you'd like to talk about fraud, maybe you should cry "Fraud!" on this thread because, after all, it started off good but then as it progressed it just became another Ursan thread.

LockerLoad · Jun 09, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

You know, the funny thing is when I launch "Guild Wars" on my PC it's the same application(game) regardless of which campaign(or expansion if you like) I choose to play.

My characters from Prophecies (with their denatured armor and Uber PVE abilities) are free to roam all over the map Shouting SY and such.

Sure GW isn't what I paid for. I mean with the PVP skill packages for sale and new classes breaking the balance, separate PVP/PVE skills do seem trivial by comparison.

Whatever was I thinking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandom

Prophecies was sold as an alternative to WoW .

Are you serious? WoW is a persistant universe game. It has more in common with Maple Story than Guildwars.

sph0nz · Jun 09, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilipol

/not signed

These skills are not PvP therefore cannot be used against you therefore do not have an impact on how you play the game.

From the number of threads on this matter I could say that since there are so many people against the use of PvE skills they would have no problem grouping with each other...

The point is no one is honest enough to name his thread "Nerf PvE skills because I don't want other players to have my titles".

I lol'd.

And I bet you also believe that your co-worker's health has absolutely no effect on you as well?

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Avoiding problems does not solve problems.

I don't give a shit what titles other players have. I have rank 10 Norn, and I still propose the Norn blessings to be removed because their functionality contradicts the original premise of "skill>time", and thus ArenaNet and the community have both assisted in creating title discrimination in PvE, something that was exclusive to PvP in Heroes Ascent. Furthermore, my proposition doesn't even nerf any PvE-only skills, it just makes them more accessable because you wouldn't need to work on titles to get better PvE-only skills. If you consider removing three skills that are bad for the game a "nerf", then I guess I am asking for a "nerf" of these absurd "blessings".

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandom

I did read the OP, but I responded to what I saw later in the thread, which was more complaints about Ursan. If you'd like to talk about fraud, maybe you should cry "Fraud!" on this thread because, after all, it started off good but then as it progressed it just became another Ursan thread.

I'm addressing all three Norn blessings because they all function similarly; Ursan was mentioned merely because it's the most widely used Norn blessing; the issue at hand is not "just another ursan thread", but keep believing that.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 09, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandom

Prophecies was the ONLY ONE that was advertised as skill > time.

Pretty much sums it up, there really is nothing to discuss any more relating to skill over time.

sph0nz · Jun 09, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandom

And Prophecies was the ONLY ONE that was advertised as skill > time.

Fair enough.

Don't like GWFactions/GWNightfall/Eye of the North don't buy it, amirite?

kostolomac · Jun 09, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

I played through NF and proph , still thinking about going through factions after I saw what became of Guild Wars in NF. The only two places where skill>time is valid are PvP and the prophecies campaign. Also DLDU on ursan is valid , since it's not a problem , but a solution, although a bad one.

seandom · Jun 09, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Quote:
Originally Posted by seandom
Prophecies was sold as an alternative to WoW .

Are you serious? WoW is a persistant universe game. It has more in common with Maple Story than Guildwars.

next time quote the whole statement. I said that "Prophecies was sold as an alternative to WoW which looked somewhat realistic and had a skill > time motivation so you didn't have to grind or get the best armor to be the best in the game."
By trying to do everything different from WoW(including no monthly fee) it is in my eyes, a direct alternative.

Lexxor · Jun 10, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

I created a topic with the exact same idea more then half year ago, and got flamed (imagine that).
I will /sign your idea because it's just the same idea I had and I belive GW shuild be less grinding.

I doubt it would happen for GW1, so I seriously hope that GW2 will apopt this system from the very start.

the_jos · Jun 10, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

I don't give a shit what titles other players have. I have rank 10 Norn, and I still propose the Norn blessings to be removed because their functionality contradicts the original premise of "skill>time", and thus ArenaNet and the community have both assisted in creating title discrimination in PvE, something that was exclusive to PvP in Heroes Ascent.

I think you should have added something with this title discrimination comment.
Title discrimination is something that matters for PUGs, not for teams composed by players who play with each other regular.

And when you look at the elite outposts after the introduction of GWEN but before UB hit mainstream, one thing is certain.
Most of those outpost were abandoned and it took a long time to find a team.
I know a lot of players would only play in areas like DoA, FoW or UW with at least several players they knew in the team. Pure PUG teams did exist but were not that populair.

The main problem for me with UB is that the number of non-UB teams forming in alliances and guilds seem to be dropping.
Even if it's not as effective as a regular build powered by consumables.

If a skill like UB is nerfed people won't play the elite areas as much as they do now untill the next build emerges that enables people to play with relatively high rate of succes.
So instead of not being able to enter an area because you don't have UB you can't enter because there are not enough players around to team up with in a decent amount of time.

Do I favor a change of the PvE skills?
Sure, I'd like to see balanced teams form again.
But I think that those balanced teams will be about guilds, friends and alliances and not involve PUG.

sph0nz · Jun 10, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I think you should have added something with this title discrimination comment.
Title discrimination is something that matters for PUGs, not for teams composed by players who play with each other regular.

And when you look at the elite outposts after the introduction of GWEN but before UB hit mainstream, one thing is certain.
Most of those outpost were abandoned and it took a long time to find a team.
I know a lot of players would only play in areas like DoA, FoW or UW with at least several players they knew in the team. Pure PUG teams did exist but were not that populair.

The main problem for me with UB is that the number of non-UB teams forming in alliances and guilds seem to be dropping.
Even if it's not as effective as a regular build powered by consumables.

If a skill like UB is nerfed people won't play the elite areas as much as they do now untill the next build emerges that enables people to play with relatively high rate of succes.
So instead of not being able to enter an area because you don't have UB you can't enter because there are not enough players around to team up with in a decent amount of time.

Do I favor a change of the PvE skills?
Sure, I'd like to see balanced teams form again.
But I think that those balanced teams will be about guilds, friends and alliances and not involve PUG.

I think I've mentioned previously that title discrimination is essentially exclusive to PuGs, but even so, avoiding the problem of title discrimination by joining a guild doesn't solve the problem of title discrimination. Title discrimination will still exist, and the reputation titles (and lightbringer) will still promote time spent maxing the title over player skill.

That is true. Ursan has made the game more accessable, but at the cost of the game's integrity, and a contradiction of "skill>time". This is a problem as well. Furthermore, the Norn blessings are simply "broken", easily abused, and essentially make the game easier.

The point is to lessen the amount of "required grind" and to promote player skill, but apparently the majority would rather not do that in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexxor

I created a topic with the exact same idea more then half year ago, and got flamed (imagine that).
I will /sign your idea because it's just the same idea I had and I belive GW shuild be less grinding.

I doubt it would happen for GW1, so I seriously hope that GW2 will apopt this system from the very start.

My apoligies. I didn't find that when I searched, even though my idea is slightly different and more detailed.

Akolo · Jun 10, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

i tend to say those that say not signed do so because they are afraid that the key of their success or their "key to easy money" is going to be removed.

/signed for obvious reasons